The Minister Series - The exclusive interview and discussion with the Former Lebanese Minister of Interior Mr. Ziyad Baroud
Decentralisation as a governing principle for Lebanon
Francesco Pitzalis, Staff Writer
April 13th, 2021
Lebanon has been mired in political and financial turmoil since the onset of the October 17th revolution in 2019. As such, the routes out of the crisis can no longer be limited to simple political reshuffling. The change must be systematic and truly reformative. To that end, The Phoenix Daily sat down with former minister of the interior and municipalities, Ziyad Baroud; for a discussion on decentralisation as a governing principle for Lebanon. Mr. Baroud is considered a renowned expert on the topic of decentralisation and has also staunchly campaigned for electoral reform.
Francesco Pitzalis: Mr. Baroud would you like to start by defining decentralisation for our viewers and what exactly that entails?
Ziyad Baroud: It is very simple… Decentralisation is about local elected bodies with financial and administrative autonomy… In order to define it in a better way, we should say what it is not… It is not about districting done by the central government. Meaning… when the central government appoints civil servants in the regions… this is not decentralisation this is deconcentration, so it is within the centralised system.
On the difference between decentralisation and federalism
Ziyad Baroud: it’s a difference in nature not in degree. Both are geographical districting, you have districts that are geographically divided but in the federal system you might have a parliament, you might have a local parliament, you might have local legislation, you might have local courts. Whereas in the decentralised system, you cannot have different laws in the regions.
I personally advocate for decentralisation because… in Lebanon decentralisation is unanimously accepted. Plus, and this is most important, whether you go federal or decentralised, in both cases, the three major issues that Lebanon is facing are, foreign policy, defence strategy and monetary policy. In the three mentioned issues, there is no difference between federalism and decentralisation. Why? Because they will still remain in the hands of the central government.
Francesco Pitzalis: given the current climate with inflation and the extent of poverty in Lebanon, do you consider decentralisation a priority now?
Ziyad Baroud: well… actually yes. Because what is much needed today is an effective response to people’s needs. Look at what happened with Covid-19, locally. The central government was calling for municipalities to assist and to help because they couldn’t do everything, everywhere, at the same time. So, they had to call for municipalities’ support.
The municipalities managed to provide support in a very efficient way. So… I think that anything that you take to the local level, provided it is organized, provided you give it the proper means and tools and money, resources in order to do the job it could help a lot in times of crisis and we are in a time of crisis… whether on a Covid Level or a financial level. So yes… I think it is very timely, it’s the proper time to have decentralisation implemented.
Francesco Pitzalis: Why do you think in the case of garbage and other services that the central government sucks up municipal funds and power? Because there have been some acts like the 1977 municipalities act which provide funding for municipalities but that seems to have been eroded at some point.
Ziyad Baroud: The law of 1977, the municipalities act, is one of the best actually. The terms of the law are excellent and very progressive. But the problem is, that every time the central government finds ways in order to curb what the law gives… A very liberal law and a very conservative administration… That will try everything in order to avoid giving you the rights that the law gives you. Take for instance, the independent municipal fund, it’s the IMF but not the IMF. Our local IMF is not working. Because it’s not a fund actually… It’s an account, an account at the level of the ministry of finance. This is wrong. A fund should be… administered by elected people, it should have very clear rules for money spending and for projects’ approvals, which is not the case with the local IMF.
Francesco Pitzalis: unfortunately if you have a proper local IMF then a lot of people are going to lose out, including the ministry of finance... How do you overcome these sorts of obstacles in terms of implementing decentralization?
Ziyad Baroud: You put criteria, you take it out from the ministry of finance. You put it in the hands of elected people, with very clear criteria. Which are provided for in the law… its possible it’s doable. I think that the way the IMF was working made it impossible for municipalities to be payed in due time and to get the proper resources they need in order to develop their localities in order to undertake the very large prerogatives that the law gives them.
Francesco Pitzalis: How might decentralisation provide services in municipalities?
Ziyad Baroud: Decentralisation shouldn’t be perceived as if it is exclusive from the central government. Meaning, the central government should keep doing the job it should be doing. So, decentralised bodies would take the lead in some areas, in implementing some development projects but the central government shouldn’t resign from its duties. You know, in some regions if you don’t have the support and the assistance of the central government you end up having regions that cannot sustain (themselves)… There should be a way, some incentives maybe and some sort of decentralised fund that would give them the support that is needed.
Francesco Pitzalis: We are going to talk about corruption… The statistics don’t lie, Lebanon is rated 149th of 180 countries for corruption on transparency.org. I’ve seen many arguments in favour of using decentralisation to highlight and combat corruption, what are your views on this?
Ziyad Baroud: Absolutely. The corruption perception index is worrying because each year we say, “last year we were in better shape!” It is very well established that decentralization can curb corruption. Why? Because the closer you are to the people the more transparent you can be. Accountability is easier on the local level and we have seen it in municipalities; so I think that decentralisation would lead to not only a better accountability but also even in terms of procurement (of public services)… That’s why I think it is very well established that decentralisation can help a lot in preventing corruption, not only fighting corruption.
Again, you have to double check on the provisions of each law and see if it really helps or not. What I’m trying to say is, look at the draft law that we submitted. If you look at every single article you will see… to what extent the idea of preventing corruption is present. There are mechanisms, its not only about decentralisation its about mechanisms… procurement laws… monitoring… elected councils.
Francesco Pitzalis: You have mentioned a draft law several times now, it sounds pretty robust. I’m wondering why hasn’t it been passed?
Ziyad Baroud: Three main reasons… One is the political momentum. Second reason, the fear of some politicians that decentralisation would take from their constituencies’ clientelist way of dealing with politicians… it could really jeopardise their “business as usual.” The third reason is… misperception, some do not really understand that decentralisation could be very beneficial, even for remote regions… In some discussions I felt that many do not really understand (decentralisation) and they have this legitimate fear that it could go wrong.
Francesco Pitzalis: Why is decentralisation or federalism (more to the point) considered a conservative, right wing or even Christian position?
Ziyad Baroud: Conservative? No, I think that decentralisation is very leftist, so to speak. Now… Christian or not? Let me remind you that Kamal Jumblatt in the ‘60s and the National movement (el-harakeh el-wataniyeh) were advocating for decentralisation. It was not purely a “Christian” or Kataeb or Lebanese forces thing. Emile Eddeh in the early ‘30s… was calling for decentralisation… And, in order to make things very clear, Taif agreement in ’89 made perceived decentralisation something that Lebanese people or political parties are unanimous about.
On Financial decentralization
My fear is about finance. If you don’t give decentralised bodies the financial resources, they need they will end up with a failure… It is not enough to have a new decentralisation law. It is very important that the new decentralising law be accompanied with proper financial resources for elected bodies to be able to perform.
Francesco Pitzalis: Another thing I noticed about decentralised systems, taking the example of African states… is that there is often a return to customary law… and in these cases the rights of women are often denigrated. Do you think this might be a problem in Lebanon?
Ziyad Baroud: No… When I was trying to amend the municipalities act… I succeeded in convincing the council of ministers to accept a quota for women of 30% (for candidacy). If you have a new parliament in 2022. I think that… things are changing. I do believe that women in Lebanon do have their say and they are being very, very vocal and very strong. I am discussing the matter with many groups that are working on women’s participation in politics and I’m really happy to see that they have plans. Only yesterday, we had a session with groups of women preparing themselves to run for municipalities in 2022… I think that things are changing, I am confident.
Francesco Pitzalis: I am going to touch on national cohesiveness, which is of course a big problem in Lebanon… How might decentralisation make the Lebanese more cohesive?
Ziyad Baroud: Well, first look at the situation as it is. Are we more cohesive than how we could be if we go decentralised? I don’t think so. The contrary, decentralisation would make people in every region more confident and more happy about what they have internally. Plus, when the central government is problematic, if you are decentralised you wouldn’t have the same problems in the regions… If we have decentralised bodies it will lower the tension regarding the central government.
Reem El-Dana, attendee from audience: Can civil society have a role in accelerating the passing of the decentralisation law?
Ziyad Baroud: Yes, through what you are doing today. This talk is about civil society involvement in decentralisation. It is also through awareness, spreading awareness about decentralisation. What does it mean? How does it work? I think that civil society groups should put pressure on law makers in order to support the adoption and the voting of the decentralisation law.
Joelle El-Sheikh, attendee from audience: Do you think that decentralisation can be achieved without first achieving judicial independence?
Ziyad Baroud: I definitely believe that judicial independence should be a high priority because it is in the constitution already and it is not applied. So, yes it should be achieved but I wouldn’t put it first or second. I would say let us do everything possible and make a breakthrough wherever we can. We cannot wait until judicial independence is achieved… things cannot wait sometimes
Francesco Pitzalis: Ok but if I were to follow up on Joelle’s question I would say, do you think a lack of judicial independence could compromise the efficacy of decentralisation?
Ziyad Baroud: It could be compromised, yes, but to a certain extent. Not totally compromised… but it would be dealt with on a case by case basis. I think that, look at how people are dealing with the port blast and the investigation… people, the media and public opinion is following very closely what is happening with the investigator and the investigation. Even the judiciary is witnessing major changes. Look at what the club of judges is doing… I think that many things are changing positively. It won’t happen overnight. The journey is the trophy and we are on it already and I think that we should keep on believing that things will positively change.
We would like to take the opportunity to thank Mr. Baroud once again for taking the time to discuss and educate us on such a key reform concerning Lebanon. The full interview can be accessed as an IGTV @thephoenixdaily CLICK HERE to watch and listen.